The Navigating Disruption Podcast

I first met Frank at the Ivy Academy, the Ivy Business School, during a leadership course. I was assigned as a coach for him and his cohort. And so I had exposure to him in action, and I got to get to know him quite well. And I found that his keen insights and his approach to leadership really struck a chord. As we work closely, I saw firsthand his commitment not just to enhancing his skills, but elevating everyone around him.

He stands out for his deeply human approach to leadership, and I really got to see that in action. I knew that his approach leading as if he is leading a family is something that would resonate with you, and I was very pleased that he accepted my invitation to come here. So enjoy the conversation with Frank, and let's learn more about the way he leads his family. Enjoy the conversation. Welcome to the Navigating Disruption podcast.

I'm Shakeel Varmal, your host. As the founder of Ocean Blue Strategic, an executive coach at the Ivy Academy, and a partner with the Summit Group, I spend my days exploring the intricacies of leadership, customer relationships, and strategic thinking. Here, we connect with fascinating individuals from various walks of life to discover how we can make a more significant impact in these complex times as leaders, colleagues, and sales professionals, and more importantly, how we can grow as human beings. Before we begin today's episode, I acknowledge that we are recording from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabeg people. As I am a stone's throw from the meeting of the Ottawa, Gatineau, and Rideau Rivers, it's important to recognize this area's rich history as a gathering place.

For 100 or probably 1000 of years, where these rivers meet has been a site of exchange of goods, yes, but also ideas and cultures. And they continue to flow through this, our virtual community, shaping our interactions and hopefully our future. Frank, how are you, my friend?

I'm doing fantastic, Shaquille. How are you doing?

Good. Good. It's great to see your smiling face, and just wanted to let you know that I've been on hiatus for a couple of years from this podcast. And so you are actually, one of my first conversations back.

Fantastic. What an honor.

Yeah. No. I'm I'm glad you feel that way. That's awesome. And I'll tell you, it was there was a particular moment that we'll get into when we were interacting where I thought to myself, you'd make a really good guest on the podcast.

And then I I went into hiatus, and then I thought about it again. And second time I saw you, and I said, okay. When when I get back going, you gotta be one of the first. So so here you are. Excellent.

Yeah. Well, let's quickly let people know how we know each other. You were taking a leadership course with the Ivy Business School, the Ivy Academy, where I'm on the coaching faculty. And I got to work with you and a small group of people through those few days on that course as well as then follow-up afterwards. And then we continue to work together a little bit.

That's kinda how we know each other.

Yeah. It was fantastic. It was wonderful meeting you, and you were such a great, addition to my, portfolio, of expanding my horizons with some leadership coaching, and I'm forever grateful for it.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, let's, well, maybe we'll touch on some of those experiences. But let's start with just I'd love to give you a chance just to kinda share with the audience and kinda the basics of who you are, what you do, your role, and then we'll get a little deeper from there.

Sure. Yeah. So it's my name is Francesca Bozo or Frank Bozo was as I'm referred to. And I've been with, CHEP Canada for 21 years. Presently, I lead the Canadian business as well as the Polycom business, which is the container business for North America.

So I'm the vice president and general manager for both business units.

K. Fantastic. When give me a sense of of size. How many people, in your kind of entire organization that you're responsible for?

Yeah. So between both organizations, between the salary staff and the hourly staff, I would say it's probably about, roughly 1800.

1800. Okay. So that's quite quite a big organization, and you've been leading them through a very interesting last several years. I'm sure there's much to talk about talk about there. First, let's dive in a little bit because I am very confident that, at least for my listeners and probably for most of the world, that CHEP is probably one of the largest companies that people have never heard of.

Right? It's it's unless you're kinda in in supply chain, in distribution, most people don't know of CHEP, and that's probably perfectly okay with you.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. We fly to the radar, but we're we're Yeah. We truly are the invisible backbone of the supply chain.

And I share a funny story when during the pandemic, my daughter was at school and all the kids were talking about what their what their parents do for a living.

And Yeah.

My my daughter explained it very simply to her to her her team. She said to her students. She said she said, if it wasn't for my father and his company, he would never eat. And it's because, you know, as being the invisible backbone of the supply chain, all goods, you know, primary primarily all the goods across Canada are moving in our pallets and are moving through distribution channel. So when you walk through the the the commercial outfits or the, retail outfits, you'll see blue palettes.

And those are our palettes that we usually distribute goods across Canada.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure most people don't realize or think about as they're walking through a grocery store, walking through any kind of retail situation, ordering even from Amazon that everything they receive likely was on a pallet and just because your size and your role in the world, it was likely one of yours, one of your ballots.

That's that's a valid statement. That that indeed.

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Okay. So, lots of I I I just love that that it one of the biggest companies that people haven't heard of.

So, people will now start opening their eyes a little bit and looking for your your blue high quality palettes. I came across you early in my career. My first job, I spent some time in the distribution center in a warehouse, and you were one of the pallets that came to our distribution center, and that was, I don't know, that was 23 years old. So been around a long time. And you're all over the world.

Right?

We are. We we operate in 60 countries. And then it's funny. I came across the pallets back in my youth as well working in the grocery business while I was going to school. So that would have been back nearly 40 years ago.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So that's the question of kinda what you do publicly, what your role is. Now is the bigger question, Frank, and one that some people find hard to answer, but let's see let's see how you think about it.

How do you think about your your role in the world or your role with the people you work with and the communities you're part of? What how do you describe your your your impact or what you try to be your impact?

It's interesting, Shaquille, because I think for me, that really plays into this whole notion of what is the legacy you leave behind. You How do people remember you or the impact you made on the organization and the community you serve? So for me, I treat the business as an extension of my family. And if anyone you speak to within my organization, they would speak to that. And I always joke and often say, you know, families don't always get along and family has families have disagreements, but we work together and and and take care of each other through some through difficult times.

Now having said that, you know, we also ensure that we serve the communities around us. It's very important to me and to and and to my team that that we do that. So you have to think of opportunities with Food Bank Canada, think of opportunities for us to volunteer as an organization. These are things that I think I instill in my team. It's extremely important that they take that seriously and that they realize that there's a significant impact that we can make on the communities that we serve.

So they're all given 3 days of volunteer days, that are fully paid for by the company, to encourage that behavior. But what's interesting is that that behavior trickles into the office as well, And you'll see people bring things forward, and opportunities for where they see needs of the community that we can work collectively together on on trying to solve or at least at least play a bigger role and a bigger part in that. As an organization, it's it's really important because we're we're far more than just a logistics or a supply chain provider. It's really about how we, you know, how we take care of our our fellow our fellow people that are in need around

us. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So when you think about how what what what does that do for the culture of your workplace?

What does it do for individual people to make it, because you make that such an important part of of the way you do business?

I think it's, it makes them feel proud of who they work for. Yeah. It it definitely plays a role in our retention. We have you know, our retention is very high, and the average tenure in our organization is quite high. And this isn't a group that's complacent.

We're always pushing the outlook forward. We're always looking for new ways to innovate, and become a better version of ourselves every day. But having said that, they they take some serious pride in in who they represent. And what's funny is that they it actually trickles down into their households. And what I mean by that specifically is, you know, we we have some giving back events where we include families.

So they bring their kids to the event. They bring their spouses to the event. And what's often said to us by the spouses or by the children that they can't they can't believe that the unity that they see within the organization and how seriously we take this and how well we work together as a team. And that to me, I think is is is core to our culture and core to what makes us successful and quite frankly separates us from a lot of the competition that's out there as well.

Yeah. I mean, let me validate that because I had a chance. You invited me to do some work with your team, a very large event, And I spent a couple of days with you. And I have to say that I can totally validate that There was a spirit. There was a culture.

There was a caring. There was a commitment to the work that you were doing as an organization that was really important. I talked to people that had been around for years. I had talked to people that had left but had come back, and there was very clearly a strong affinity, affiliation, emotion connected to the culture of the organization. So so kudos to that.

I found myself quite quite inspired being there and really enjoyed being with your with, let's call it, your family. I didn't use that term at that time. But since you used the term, you called it family. And then now that I think about it, it did feel that way. It did feel that people felt that way.

So if family is a big part of how you define what you bring to your organization, to your roles, to your to your life, where do you think that came from? Was there like, maybe let me assume, do you see yourself and a little bit of a loaded question, Do you see yourself as a leader of the organization that you're part of as the leader of the family?

Oh, 100%. I think for me, it's deep rooted. Right? If I think back to my career, and different leaders that that have kinda shaped and molded me in different mentors, you know, one thing that's unique is the involvement even within my household. So my spouse, my wife is a big part of my success and is a big part of who I am today.

But part of that is because she understands the extension of the family. She understands what supported me within the organization. She knows she knows people within the organization. You know, there's there's very few people that work within CHEP that I don't know their spouses or their children's names. And and some some organizations or some leaders think that that's rare, that they're that that's kind of, either unnecessary.

They don't have the time for it. But it's these simple subtle things that, for example, every single every single salary employer in our organization, their their birthday's in my calendar. I take 2 minutes to wish them happy birthday. It's not a generic message. It's a it's a it's a genuine happy birthday.

And I think most leaders lose sight of the fact that those are the things that are extremely important for people. Those are the things that really make people feel that they belong in an organization. And and quite frankly, they think twice about leaving the organization because they they they have that sense of unity and commitment within the organization.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not actually hard to do. Right? To No.

To send

off pop off a happy

a happy birthday message, but the impact is so much larger than the effort that you put into it.

Yeah. Absolutely. And it's it's it's a little things. Right? Like, you know, instead of sending a message from my email, I may send it through through a chat or through a personal text message.

It seems more personal. It doesn't seem like it came from my assistant. They came they know it comes from me. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting interesting touch. So you think a lot about those little things and how how they make a difference. Frank, I talk a lot about nostalgia and the power of our experiences as a child and the people that we've interacted with.

When you think about the way you are as a leader and particularly this emphasis on family, can you connect the dots back to experiences and people in your childhood that kind of set the stage for this?

Yeah. I came from a European background. You know, a family's family and is that is important. And it's funny because I grew up where my grandparents lived next door to me, and my other set of grandparents lived with us. So I was thinking about family all the time, arguably too much.

But having said that, I think that

Yeah.

How I think it translated to my youth and then into into my adult, life is that even as a as a young boy playing soccer, I was a captain of the team. As a teenager playing football in high school, I was the captain of the high school football team. And it was always about bringing people together. And, and oftentimes, you know, there's a joke, within some of my some of my old high school friends where, you know, I was I I was involved in so many different things from playing the lead role of Jesus in in a play to being the captain of the football team, to getting people together. And it was just that that that notion of of being surrounded by good people.

Mhmm. And I think that that to me is is important. Life is short. So if we're going to spend a lot of time with the folks that we work with, then you need to work with people that you respect and that you care about.

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. I love that.

And so part of what you felt being being the leader of the family was partly just to surround yourself with people that you liked and create the energy. I always say that, you know, we we need to be all responsible for the energy we bring into the room. Absolutely. Expand that to the energy we bring into the the the family, the world, whatever it is, that is how it sounds like you think about things. Yeah.

All the time.

I think for me, it's not just about, you know, people think of family. They think, oh, well, it's just it must be all kumbaya, and there's no there's no ramifications for people's decisions or or actions, you know, and and it's quite the opposite. My my standards and and my team will tell you are extremely high. But what's interesting is that because of those standards, everyone kinda elevates their game, and we all operate at a very high level, and very fast paced. But when you have a common respect for the people around you and you and you work that extra harder to to to to achieve things together as a team, that sense of unity and purpose, resonates within within the organization and people feel it.

Yeah. And so you talked about your grandparents living with you and your grandparents living beside you. You know, when you were younger, tell me what that experience is like when you came home from school. Kinda what were the things that happened. I mean, I was a bit of a latchkey kid.

I came home, and there was nobody home. My brother was home. And as he got older, he wasn't home either. So it's very different to me to hear this. Tell me about what that's that was like when you came home from school.

Yeah. It's funny. When I talk to people about it, they think I'm kidding, but but it it it was reality for it was it was it was very strange because I had many friends that had grandparents that lived abroad, and they were they had very small families. So for me, I always joke saying that I had essentially 3 fathers. You know?

I had 3 people disciplining me, whether it's my father or my grandpa or grandfathers. It was it was, one of them would pick up the slack for the other. That that was for sure. And then and then and then with the grandmothers, just you have 3 people feeding you. Right?

You have your mother. Everyone's trying to feed you, right, all the time. So it was really a matter of, you know, coming home and and and being surrounded by good people and being surrounded by by family, essentially. And, but that also forced me into a, a bit more responsibility than I probably would have liked back then because I think the expectation was that now that I was that I was home and I was the oldest of my 3 brothers, it was, hey. Listen.

Why don't you, you know, why don't you work on this or can you help me with this? And, you know, you're getting pulled in multiple directions to kind of help out help out and step up kind of thing. Right?

Yeah.

So more so than probably I would have liked as a as a as a young child, but it did teach me a lot about respect. It did teach me a lot about just work ethic in general. Yeah. And, so it was it was interesting. I I wouldn't I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Yeah. So you you always had somebody's eyes on you watching what you're doing, making sure you're staying on the path. Right?

Indeed. Yeah. Always. In all the time.

Were you were you the eldest of your siblings?

I was the eldest. Yes.

Ah, okay. That so that like you said, responsibility of being the eldest, lots of scrutiny, lots of eyes on you. Yeah. That's a lot to grow up with. And I'm sure at at times, you were like, why me?

Why do I get all this attention? And why why can't I just get away with things? And why I'm the responsibility? But now when you think about that, how do you think about all those experiences, influences, pressures?

I think it shaped me to who I am today completely. Like, for me, I mean, it wasn't just about being the oldest of my brothers. It was also being the oldest grandchild. So now, you know, you have aunts and uncles that are are influential. You have, you know, younger cousins that are looking up to you.

Younger brothers are looking up to you. So it does it does shape you for sure. And and I think I've always had that type of leadership mentality because

Mhmm.

Not that it was forced upon me, but it was always put I was always put in an environment where that was put to test.

Test. Yeah.

And and because of that, that that completely shaped who I am today.

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So I wanna take that somewhere else here where I first met you. I, you know, I remember our very first interaction.

I was actually on vacation with my family in, in the Maritimes, and we had our very first kind of introductory conversation before that program in London, Ontario. And you were super self aware, And I remember thinking how committed you were to your ongoing development as a leader. And you were, like, transparent, honest, and open in that first conversation. You you trusted me very quickly. So, one, thank you for that.

Mhmm.

But one of the things that I I wanna reflect on is with all your responsibilities for leadership, now I was thinking in your corporate career. But in reality, you've been a leader ever since you were a child because you've been the eldest and then you went and lead sports teams and that kind of thing. So, if you've been a leader for basically most of your life, how do you think about your continued development as a leader? Like, have you already arrived? Are you already a great leader?

Or is it something that's a pursuit? And how do you think about that that pursuit?

Yeah. I don't, you know, I don't think you ever arrive. I I think if you have if you feel that you've arrived, you failed yourself and the people around you because the reality is there are things that we can learn every single day. There are ways to improve every single day. There are there are people that join my leadership team that test different things about my interactions with them or that test my beliefs on certain things.

So, I think that for me, you know, being self aware is key and and oftentimes, I think we we fall into the trouble into into the hole of thinking that the way we do things is the best way of doing things Mhmm. Or that we believe we have the answers to all the questions. And when we first met, I remember one of the things that you and I had talked about specifically was, how do I stop stepping into situations? How do I stop providing my perspective or guiding the conversations? Right?

And I remember that when when you and I first connected, one of my very first, 360 feedbacks for my teams back then was that I was very directive, and that was part of my leadership style. Style. And that that that bothered me to my core. And the reason why is because I always felt that now that I stepped into leading the because I went from a commercial role to now leading the entire organization. I always felt that, I wanted to be more visionary, and I wanted to provide that vision to the organization and and inspiration.

So what was interesting is that 2 years post my my my promotion into the role of leadership, I did the survey again, And it was funny how that completely shifted into more being more visionary. But I really I really feel that that part of that journey was really taking the moments to pause and not inject myself into the conversation, taking the moments to solicit feedback. You know, oftentimes as leaders, we already know where we want to go or we think we know where we wanna go. Mhmm. But the problem is we don't give our teams an opportunity to express their interest or their intent and and their willingness to wanna join us on that journey.

So it's just giving them the opportunity to speak and provide their perspective. Now as a leader, you may or may not take it or you may take bits and pieces of it, but at least you've incorporated them in the journey. So my team never feels that they're that they're left behind. My team never feels that there's a disconnect, that there's a gap. They always feel part of the process.

So when you think about the evolution, I think for me, it comes down to in in life, you're always gonna have different methodologies, different ways of leading depending on the situation, and that'll always test different skill sets, you know, and that I think is really important, because I think as leaders is once we once we acknowledge that, that gives us the opportunity to kind of improve and create that environment, for our team members.

Yeah. Yeah. That is, actually very remarkable the way you strung all that together because, of course, I remember that initial conversation. And, and I was thinking to to myself through that that how deliberate you were being. Like, you I mean, the the 360 that you did with me was probably one of many that you've done over your career.

I think you mentioned that you've done you've done others. But you were very you're almost quite surgical about the feedback you were looking at, what it told you about how people see you, what you how you wanted people to be seen as you just articulated. And it wasn't really inter it wasn't negative. Like, this this idea that you picked up that you were seen as directive didn't come across as a negative on you because you are quite a caring leader. Right?

When you are a caring leader and people see that you're family oriented and you wanna do good things for them in the organization, that directiveness doesn't come off as negative. But you yourself said that is not the way I wanna come off. I want people to buy in. I wanna be visionary, and I wanna create that. You deliberately worked on those things, and I watched you.

I watched you work on those things. I I was there when you asked for feedback about how I'm doing. And now you're saying you've measured it again, and you've seen a big impact in that in in the area you want to pursue and get better at. That's remarkable.

Yeah. It it's it's very rewarding, and and and you you feel as if you've you've you've accomplished something. Now I remember, you know, and kudos to you because, you know, you pushed me into my comfort zone in many ways. And one of the one of the conversations you and I had, if you recall, because with leading 2 business units, it's almost as if I had to have 2 different leadership styles because they were at 2 different maturity levels, like, completely different. And Amber, you and I talked about this this concept of of, of the Buddha Buddha Hercules versus Buddha.

Yeah. That's

right. I've referenced that so many times because it is so true. You know? It's it's when do you when do you bring people together for for that for that, you know, to that for that discussion to have that collective thought versus when do you step in as a leader and say, wait a second. Time out.

We need to make this decision. Let's move in this direction. And I and I think that that having that balance in any in any leadership role, I think is so critical because there's oftentimes you are gonna have to be Hercules and step in and make a decision. And there's gonna be many times where you're better off being booted and bringing people together and having harmony and creating and creating, you know Yeah. Being in sync.

Right? So kudos to you because that that's a concept that, quite frankly I I wasn't really versed to before before meeting you. And then something that I have often referred to with my own team and they get a you know, they get a laugh about it because they'll they can clearly tell when I beat more Buddha versus more earthquakes. Right? So

that's that's amazing. Amazing. Well, I I can't let the moment pass without acknowledging the, professor Martha Mesdetsky, who also led your leadership program

She was wonderful.

At at Ivy. And that's a a that framework or that concept of Hercules Buddha is something she she developed about how leaders need to be during times of complexity. So wanna give her that shout out. But I have found it very useful and and and it resonates. And I'm thrilled that it's resonated for you, and you think about it and you carry it with you.

Absolutely.

Let me let me share a little story because, obviously, I I spread that. I spread that framework a lot. I use it in some of my, conversations with leaders. And I actually recently so I was using it a lot when we first met, and then I it kind of got tucked away for a bit. And I brought it back out, and I was re leading a leadership session of people kind of in the nonprofit and government world, kind of a leadership program that I've been working on for a while.

And I brought out Hercules meets Buddha. And, you know, what was interesting, actually quite fascinating to me is I got a lot of pushback on it, which caught me off guard. But I'll tell you what the pushback was. Any guesses on what the pushback might have been?

That's something they they just told what to do. They're they're not they're not given an opportunity to have that in sync conversation, I believe.

Yeah. A little bit of that, but what what was the big thing that I took away? Yeah. It did resonate for some people in the audience, but other people in the audience couldn't wrap their mind around the the actual archetypes. They were 2 males, right?

2 male archetypes. And that people in the group that said, you know, yeah, you're you're presenting Hercules as a hero, but he did a lot of bad things too. And then somebody else said, yeah. You know you know, Buddha left left his family behind to go and pursue a higher calling, but he left his children behind and kinda deserted them. So he's got some and so it was very interesting for me to hear that because it taught me that, you know, I gotta set this up properly, Make sure that people recognize I'm not presenting these people as perfect.

They're archetypes. Yes. But what it did remind me or lead us into a conversation of is even the best leaders, they're human and flawed. Right?

Indeed.

And we do have to accept each other. We're all flawed. And so there's no real perfect example of the best leader you can draw on. It's all areas, shades of gray, and and just being deliberate and aware of, you know, who how you're seen and what you wanna how you wanna be seen.

Yeah. You're absolutely right.

Yeah. But I'm glad that glad glad that resonated for you. It's something that I I hold quite dearly as as a bit of a aspiration. I try to always be both Hercules and Buddha. And for me, it's a little bit more work to be Hercules, but, I try.

I think for you, it was a little bit more work to spend more time in Buddha.

It's funny, but in the the 2 different business units, it's the opposite. Yeah. In one, it was I I was struggling to be more Buddha and the other was I was struggling to be more Hercules. So it's it's it's incredible how it is very much situational.

Yeah. Yeah. It is. I guess

It's like another dynamic. Right? But yeah. No. It's it's been a great tool.

Yeah. Awesome. So one of the things I recall from that leadership experience, we did this experiential learning where we went outside. It was cold. It was winter.

It was snowing. And we did some kind of physical activities. One of the things I picked up about you and and with that intention you had told me about wanting to be less directive. And I got to witness through these kind of activities in the snow, these outdoor activities that I could actually witness how you could be directive at times. Again, from a very caring way.

You wanna look after people. You had the answer. You had perspective on how we could solve this challenge. But I also watched over the period where you shared with your colleague, the the other participants in the program. You shared with them what you were trying to work on, and you invited them to kind of tap you on the shoulder or give you feedback.

And we had this session of feedback at the end where you were all supporting each other, and you were really gracious in how you accepted feedback when people said, sometimes I found you a little bit directive. You took it really, really well. Is it hard? Is it hard to take feedback like that from from other people? Tell me what that feels like for you.

Yeah. I think, you know, the business side of me would say, no, Shaquille. It's not hard at all. It's great to get feedback. And the human side of me will tell you, it's very hard.

Yeah. It's very hard to hear that honest feedback because as leaders, whether it's a it's whether as a father, as a husband, or as a leader of an organization, you are always striving to be the best that you can be for your people, for your teams, and your surroundings. But sometimes you you you fall short of that or you become more directive and you overstep. So getting the feedback helps level set you and put it puts things in perspective. And then taking it there's 2 ways to look at it.

One is taking it as a as a a criticism or an insult versus the other is taking it through the lens of if you truly wanna be better, then how do you embrace the feedback to understand it, dissect it, and and figure out, okay, how do I do it differently moving forward? And I think that to me is is pivotal because that that will completely transform how a leader views things. Right? If it comes across as confrontational or come across as, you know, in that manner, then you'll never you'll never accelerate. I think it comes down to how do you take the feedback, digest it, and for, okay, now what's the best path forward.

So was it hard? Yeah. It was hard for sure. Was it a bit rewarding because it was, yes, please call me out of the things that I'm doing wrong so I can see it and feel it and

Yeah.

Experience it.

Yeah.

But the good thing that happened in that discussion was the dialogue with some of those individuals post the program And us checking on each other. Hey, how are things are paying? How how are things going? Are you still, you know, are you still holding yourself accountable to some of these things? That's kinda cool.

Yeah. Oh, I

didn't know that was happening. That's awesome. Yeah. But Yeah. That's come from a level

it does come from a circle of trust for sure. And I Yeah. The people that that that that love and respect you the most will give you that feedback. And Yeah. And you need to you need to embrace it.

Because at the end

of the day, customer is

a good place. And, and you need to utilize that as a catalyst to to improve your leadership style.

Yeah. I love it. One of the activities that we did in that in that circle, I had asked all of you to go away, prepare feedback for each other. And one of the things I gave you was, develop a metaphor for each person. So when you're giving them feedback, you kind of give them a gift of this metaphor.

You actually specifically didn't do that. So I was being directive and you said I'm not doing that. But what you did was so much better. You actually you love to read. You love to read business books, leadership books.

And so you actually gave each individual a specific suggestion of a book that would be helpful to them based on what they were trying to do and work on. I was really, amazed by that. I was moved by that because it actually takes a really deep level of thinking to to say, here's what I see in this person. Here's what they see in themselves. Here's something that I can provide that might help them on their journey.

Is that something you regularly do, like, read a lot and then recommend to people things that you think would be helpful to them?

So I I've been privileged enough to to be involved in some leadership programs within within chat. And part of these leadership programs have been around developing different skill sets, and they've they've they've assigned either work or books for us to read. And oftentimes, I've I've purchased books for my for my leadership team that I thought would be, useful, especially in in times of of of turmoil or times where there's things are a bit difficult. How do we kind of rally together and and get alignment? In that particular example you gave about about that feedback session, it was interesting because with a couple of the individuals that were in there, there were books that popped in my mind immediately in my interactions, and I thought, wait a second.

This would be a wonderful thing for this individual to read because it would provide a different perspective and actually be aligned with what they're working on. Yeah. And and oftentimes, we don't realize that the power that that some that reading has and it influences us and influences more as our our it challenges our thought process. It challenges us from the perspective of, are we looking at things through multiple lenses or we're just so narrow narrow minded in the way we look at things. So that's why I think some of those books really really helped.

And and in fact, I think they they appreciated that.

Yeah. I think so too. Which also leads me to believe, you know, as a coach, yeah, sometimes I provide reading recommendations to people or send them articles. But sometimes I wonder whether that behavior itself is directive. Because I'm saying, I've seen you.

I've read this. This would be really good for you to read. But what you're kinda demonstrating to me is that actually, like, being directive sometimes is not a bad thing. It's just how you do it. Yeah.

Like, you

know I think it's I think it's necessary. Like, as a leader, there are certain times where you need to be a bit more direct. Right? If someone Yeah. If someone is not meeting your expectations, if someone is going in a direction that is not best suited for the organization or for themselves, as a leader, you owe it to yourself to to get them back on the right on the right course.

And sometimes that takes a bit of a more of a of a more directive conversation. Right? If you always if if you if you put yourself in a position where you avoid directive conversations, in my personal opinion, I don't think you'll be successful. I I don't think I don't think you can you can function that way. But what you need to do is you need to balance it from the perspective of if you're creating a vision and a sense of purpose and people buy into that vision and understand why they do what they do, then as you're providing some directed feedback, it's not viewed that way.

It's viewed more from a coach from a coaching lens.

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. I I I really do think that's important to discuss these days because there's so much conversation, at least in my world that I play in around executive coaching and facilitation, which is you gotta help people come to their own answer.

But as a leader, particularly leader of a large organization with lots of things going on in the organization and in the world, quite quite frankly, there are times that, you know, when you do know the answer or you do know something is very clear, and you have a responsibility to share that share that directly. And then how you help them get through that, you can be more nondirective there, but you do have a responsibility to be to be clear and direct. Yeah. Awesome. I wanna use these conversations in my second kind of launch of them to learn more about about different aspects of what's happening in the business world today.

And, obviously, in the last few years, kinda maybe kicked off by the pandemic, but maybe it was already gonna happen, is the significant disruptions in supply chains Mhmm. That are happening out in the world. Kinda what's what's your take on what's happening with supply chains? And is there an end in sight, do you think, in in in kind of getting to a place where things are a bit more predictable, things are flowing a bit easier? Just what's your view?

I I assume there's no right or wrong answer here. I'm just interested in your perspective.

Yeah. I think I think over time, we we might get a bit more stability. I think right now in the supply chain world, there's a there's a struggle to control cost. There's there's a bit of a balancing act around our dollar underperforming and understanding how does that impact the flow of goods throughout the supply chain. There's challenges with things as simple as, like, the grocery code of conduct and and getting people to kind of all play fairly across across different organizations.

But I think it it just shows you that organizations now more than ever need to more agile. They need to be more flexible. They need to understand that maybe they operate in a world before where they leverage a 3PL network and other than to bring things in house or or the opposite. I I think it comes down to showing the the willingness to be flexible, the willingness to partner with you with other supply chain leaders. So one one thing that I I share with my customers all the time is there are certain things that you cannot solve on your own, and there are certain things that you should bring in your other supply chain partners to help solve.

And it may not be a perfect world, but it helps accelerate things. It helps us benefit each other throughout that process. And I think more than ever now, you're you're finding there's a lot more collaboration going on Uh-huh. Between retailers, manufacturers, 3PLs, transporters, because we all realize that we all need each other throughout this process. So instead of being so so narrow minded or looking in your own backyard, it really, you know, you need to broaden your horizon and understand kind of what the challenges are, but then influence your teams to have conversations out in the field with somebody's like for like partners of yours to see how do you solve, how do for some of these common challenges.

And that means, you know, is there an opportunity for us to do, like, shared warehousing space? Is there an opportunity for us to use shared transportation resources? I look at transportation orchestration, right, at, you know, removing empty miles. Is there a way for us to create stickiness between retail partners and manufacturers? So there's different things that we can do.

And I think that, you know, when you talk about stability or predictability, consumer behavior has been so radical over the course of the pandemic that it still continues. I'll give you an example. Walking through a retailer 2 weeks ago, and there's was still a panic on on buying water over the solar eclipse. Like, it it it was incredible. Right?

So so this behavioral this behavior of the consumer is unpredictable sometimes, which is even more the reason why you need to remain agile and flexible.

Amazing. I would have never the thought would have never crossed my mind that with the eclipse coming, there would be a run on bottled water. Like, I would never make that connection.

Is there So

I guess there's some people that thought this was a doomsday scenario, and we better be ready and hunker down.

Well, it's incredible, you know, about how people interpret things, I guess. Right? But yeah.

Yeah. And those and those kind of shifts in consumer behavior and how those, like, catch actually affect the supply chain and the inventories and and demand. It's an Yeah.

Well, let's look what happened during the pandemic. Right? In the pandemic, it was very obvious in Canada that retailers were caught with very low inventory levels. Right? Yeah.

Because they always wanted to be just in time. And they wanted to maintain cost, which in a in a perfect world makes complete sense. I get it. Yeah. But the issue that you have in that scenario is then you have a lot of pressure put on the manufacturers to hold on to more inventory.

Right.

So Right. Then what happened during the pandemic was everybody was hand to mouth. Everyone was just trying to get product out their door, out to the the retailers. So now the influx of that is everyone is destocking. So retailer sales are slightly dropping, but at the same time, what's interesting about that is that they're not drawing in as much because they have to get rid of older older inventory.

Right. So there's so many things happening. I think, you know, take us years before we completely level everything off. And then that coupled with the $500 underperforming is is a challenge.

Yeah. Such a complex thing. One thing I'll just share, and and maybe you've heard this as well from your people. I was talking to one person on your team a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago, where they were saying that during the pandemic, they really realized that what they do for a living, supporting company supply chains was a high calling Because, you know, everybody needed supply chains to work well, whether it be needing food in the grocery store and needing home delivery, needing, you know, masks and vaccines moved around is this person who said to me that I realized how important the work I do is to keeping people's lives moving forward, keeping people safe, keeping people happy. And, again, supply chains are one of those things that when things go wrong, yes, everybody's arms are up in the air, but they don't realize when when things are going right.

It's it's not that it's simple.

It's that there's a lot

of people working together to collaborate, as you said, to make these things make these things work.

Absolutely. It was interesting during that time, Shaquille, because I had just taken over the business 6 months before the pandemic. So one thing that we did with our employees when when you when you when people start to understand the importance that we play, we were having coffee calls every week to keep people engaged in the business. Mhmm. But it was also to share what we were doing to to ensure supply chain continuity.

Right? And I think it was during that time that it it resonated with people as to the importance that we play and also down into their families and into their households, how important their he or she's job was to the organization in order to ensure supply chain continuity.

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Okay. I'm gonna switch gears now as we're coming into the last few minutes of our conversation.

Time has gone really fast. What are you working on next for your for your own leadership? What's kinda next on the horizon for you to to be, working on?

So for me, it's, about effective communication. And I think it's around how do I convey the story and the messaging. So oftentimes, you know, I may have a speaking engagement and somebody will come up and say, oh, that was fantastic. I really enjoyed it. And I and I feel the complete opposite.

I feel like it was a complete miss and it wasn't I didn't really articulate the message the way I wanted to. So now I'm hiring a coach to help me with with really that leadership presence and having, that level of articulation and being able to story tell. Because any effective leader, I think, has to has to focus on that. And it's interesting because when I talk to other leaders or other organizations, you know, it's not that necessarily everyone enjoys talking to the big audience. It's not that people, you know Right.

You know, but but it's necessary. It's necessary when you're talking to your team. It's necessary when you're talking abroad to different organizations. So to me, that that is my single biggest investment right now in myself is that in particular. Yeah.

Because, it really is important, especially as I continue to evolve and grow my career and move into different roles. That that that's an important part of that piece.

Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, the power of a leader's words and presence can can be can move people to do amazing things. It can move people to feel something that makes them act in ways. So I think that's amazing that you're investing time and energy.

And you recognize the importance not just of the words you say, but how you say them and how you deliver them in your presence. Congratulations. That's fantastic. Yeah. Wish you wish you well on that on that journey for sure.

And then the last question I wanna ask you is as you you know, we have lots of people listening to my my podcast. Thank goodness. What do you think is advice you'd give to an up and coming leader right now to think about as they face face the future?

I think the, I think it's really important that people step outside their comfort zone and really challenge themselves. I think it's really important that people understand the importance of their actions, and their words. And and not only that, but I think it's important that people, take the time to self reflect, on what's working and what's not working. Oftentimes, I think as leaders, we think we're doing the right thing, but we're not soliciting the feedback to verify whether or not that's resonating with our teams. So, you know, leadership roles, it's, leadership roles are truly a privilege, that are not given to many people.

And when you when you you have when you've been given that opportunity, you need to take it very seriously and realize that you're impacting many lives. So all of your actions and interactions really do count. And, so my only ask to everybody is really, really think about how you would wanna be led and what what works for you and and force yourself to emulate those things. Force yourself to emulate those those people that have mentored you throughout your careers, because I think for me, that that's really been been been key for me. And surround yourself with good people, and this is a great example.

You know? The relationship that you and I have, would not have been possible if it wasn't for me trying to, you know, trying different things and trying to improve my my leadership skill set. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. And that you totally drew me in in your approach to do that. So thank you for that. I'm very proud to to consider you now a a friend and Absolutely.

And I'm glad to have you in this conversation. So I'm gonna try something new. I have never done this before in any podcast. I'm gonna do the I hear these rapid fire questions that get a little bit kinda personal, so we'll do we'll do a 2 or 3 rapid fire questions. Are you an early bird or a night owl?

Night owl. Night owl. So you

stay up late?

I do.

After everybody goes to bed?

Right. I take care of my girls, and my my wife, my kids, and then I'm back online getting things done.

Okay. Fantastic. What's the your favorite book that you're eating either reading right now or you read recently?

Dare to Lead.

Dare to Lead. Oh, that's, Brene Brown?

That is.

That's Brene Brown. Excellent. Okay. Good one. Favorite vacation spot?

Oh, I love cruising. I love cruising.

Oh, okay.

It's my favorite.

So where's the last place you went

on a on a cruise? We were on a New Year's cruise, and, we were across the Western Caribbean.

Oh, okay. I think I've done that cruise.

I

I've done 2 cruises. I can I can I I think there's a place for them? I like the other things too, but, that's that's awesome.

Oh, I mean, I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed to tell you how many cruises I've been on.

Do you wanna say? 27. 27. All over the world?

Typically in the Caribbean, and there was a period of time it was the only time that I could separate from the business, so I figured let's go for cruise. And That's

true, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because it's way too expensive to be online on a cruise.

So Well, there's a period of time where it wasn't even an option. Like, it was really good. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. Very good. And then I'll ask you the last question. If is there one hobby that you wish you had more time for?

Golfing.

Okay. Nice to know that there's still people out there that wanna play golf.

I like the outdoors. I definitely I definitely wish I had more time for that.

Awesome. I I I play once a year for a charity tournament that I sponsor, and that's that's about it. So that is a great way to spend time outside for sure.

Yeah. Enjoy the fresh air. Have a walk.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Frank, thank you.

Thank you for your time. Thank you for your generosity. I know you're juggling lots of things. And just the fact that you gave me, this 45 minutes, I'm very grateful. So I appreciate it, and I look forward to talking to you again soon.

Shaquille, thank you so much. It was my pleasure.

I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Let me share with you some key things I took away from that, and hopefully, you took away some different things as well. So first of all, hard to have a conversation in summary takeaways without talking about his approach to leadership as family. Frank really emphasized how he treats his his team like a family, his business team like a family, stressing the importance of unity and collective care even through disagreements. And his family style approach extends to community engagement with his team being encouraged to volunteer and enhance their sense of belonging with the company.

Related to that, he talked about personalization and connection with his team. He really underscored the importance of personal touches in his leadership. He mentioned the example of getting to know everybody's birthdays and not just sending a card or an email. He actually sent personalized messages by text. So those individuals in the company knew that he was thinking about them and wished them well.

So this approach, as I saw it, really strengthens the bonds with his team. I was able to witness him in his organization with all those people and clearly drives a feeling of genuine value and belonging with the with the team. So I would say that the next big thing I took away was his whole focus on his own leadership and personal development. He acknowledged the never ending journey of leadership growth. He shared his commitment to continuous self improvement and change and and adaptation.

He stressed the importance of being open to feedback and learning from what others are saying to him. In fact, seeking feedback to adjust his leadership style according to what his team needs. We talked a lot about his ongoing pursuit of becoming a better leader. How when we first started, he was working on approaching his leadership of his 2 organizations differently based on the circumstances. Now he's working more on his leadership presence.

So kudos to Frank for always pursuing and analytically pursuing his approach to leadership growth and development. Lastly, from an industry perspective, he talked about the collaboration that's happening in the supply chain. His vantage point, given Chep's business, really does put him in the middle of a number of partners working to move goods, sometimes very critical goods, through retail and distribution channels to get to end consumers. And he has said that given the challenges we've seen in the last several years, particularly during the pandemic and the disruptions that's all caused, that he has seen more and more now companies within the supply chain being willing to work collaboratively in creativity, whether it be retailers, manufacturers, third party logistics companies, working to overcome the challenges in supply chain as partners and not just as businesses competing with each other. So all good insights from Frank.

Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed that episode. Take care. Thank you for listening. Whether you're a regular listener or joining us for the first time, I want you to know how much I value your support.

Your engagement with our content is what keeps us going. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please take a moment to rate, review, and share the episode. It truly helps us reach more listeners like you. To learn more about my work, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Visit oceanblue strategic.com, summitvalue.com, or the coaching page at the Ivy Academy.

Thanks to Lindsay Curtis, who helps me edit and produce this podcast, and an exceptional thanks to my favorite indie band, Late Night Conversations, for providing me the music for this podcast. Discover more about them on Instagram at l n c connected, and enjoy more of their music as we close out today's episode.

I can't flow like this no more. No. I can't make it. A far behind my eyes. Mediation suffocation, it'll break me.

Information in the sky. But when your eyes find you from mine, you're with perceive is a weave tearing at the seams, and I wonder what's behind. And my ears are bleeding and the reason is and the logic of the season. Taking the pleasing from my soul and leaving me to die. And I feel the lace in LMC light racing on stationery animation taking me from the purpose of my